Mortal Strike

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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Duncan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Director Eric wrote:I'm not sure exactly how to make it work, but the idea of someone being able to apply First Aid to themselves is pretty appealing to me, too. Basic First Aid wouldn't work, because in the 60 seconds it takes, the person would be dead, but the person could extend the amount of time until someone else can get to them to save them.


The first call in FIRST AID is "First Aid, I stop your count", 10 seconds later it's "First Aird, I reset your count" and 50 seconds after that "You're stable"

So a person could First Aid themselves out of it with First Aid, Basic

Rulebook wrote:First Aid, Basic
Cost: 3 SP
Basic First Aid represents emergency healing of a character by mundane means. To use First Aid you touch the torso of a Bleeding Out target and audibly state, "First Aid: Stop your count." After touching the torso for ten continuous seconds, audibly state, "First Aid: Reset your count". After touching their torso continuously for another fifty seconds (for a total of sixty seconds), you then audibly state, "You're stable”. The character will receive 1 point of healing, and will regain consciousness, if applicable. With a willing or unconscious subject, First Aid can also determine the BP and/or health ailments that a subject has, by asking OOG, "First Aid: What is your status?"
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Mordecai » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:55 pm

When Mortal was introduced, I viewed it (and still do) as someone taking a wound that will kill them, but still allows them the opportunity to RP and potentially have a last gasp chance to save themselves, while still having a decent chance of dying.


We're making the argument that Mortal does not really give you a chance to save yourself when you're cut-off from all skills, including the ability to use a weapon, shield, magic, etc.

The bucket of effects that are included in Mortal are meant to convey a tenuous hold on life through the exhaustion and limitations on speech.


While it's neat flavor-text, the "bucket of effects," when added up is really what makes Mortal so good. It's Old Curse, a partial Silence, some flavor of Slow, and you're Bleeding Out.

I would be against the option of blanket allowing of non-AP skills. I don't think someone in the throes of death would have the strength to actively fight against their attacker and that would remove the intent of the Effect.


Without AP skills, a person is greatly hindered with regards to combat. You can't use any defensives. They likely will only be able to swing base-damage. At this point, the fight is greatly statted against the victim; the attacker has a huge advantage. If I was out of AP, but was able to throw a Mortal gas at a person and they took it, now I'm in a better position than they are; they have no AP as well, but they're also dying, slowed, and can only shout once.

Basic First Aid wouldn't work, because in the 60 seconds it takes, the person would be dead


As Duncan pointed out, based on the rules of Basic First Aid, this is not true. Your count stops when you begin applying First Aid, and your count resets after 10 seconds, meaning a person with Basic First Aid can successfully use it on themselves in that minute time because first aid will extend the minute. However, they must perform the skill for one minute uninterrupted to actually remove the Mortal effect, which is likely difficult in group combat, and essentially impossible in a 1v1 situation (which we think should be the case; it shouldn't be trivial to self-remove this effect, but we believe players should potentially be able to, otherwise it's no different than Fatal, which requires another player to use healing/First Aid on you).

Basically, I think I'd be comfortable with changing it to Mortal = Weakness, Curse, Slow without changing the dramatic effect of the Effect. That would allow for the effected to have a better chance to defend themselves, but it could still be deadly and convey the RP of taking a mortal blow.


While slightly more reasonable than the effect currently is, this literally eclipses Weakness, Curse and Slow, since it's a cheap combination of all three. This is in addition to the lethality of the skill due to Bleed Out. Also, earlier in your post you mentioned being against the option of blanket allowing of non-AP skills. If you modified Mortal to be Weakness, Curse, Slow and Bleeding Out, the only non-AP skills being prohibited is actively engaging in combat (i.e. you can still use weapons to defend yourself, but you cannot attack or use any combat skills).

My recommendation is have Mortal do Bleed Out, Curse, Slow and the partial Silence.
- Bleed Out: If you do not get this effect removed (via receiving healing) within 60 seconds, you will die.
- Curse: You cannot use any skills requiring AP.
- Slow: You cannot run, movement restricted to 1 step every 2 seconds. You also must fight slower, 3 seconds between attacks.
- Partial Silence: You get one chance to shout for help.

In this case, if you are Mortal'd, you can still shout once for help, but after that anything said along must be at a whisper (I actually really like this aspect of Mortal; it means if you were with friends there's a good chance someone will notice your dilema, but if you were alone when you got hit with the effect, there's a strong chance you will be alone for the duration of the encounter). You cannot run, due to only being able to move at a pace of 1 step every 2 seconds (so you can take at most 30 steps before dying). You can still fight, but are greatly hindered, only being able to swing once every 3 seconds (which aids in both the RP factor of being greviously wounded, as well as giving the attacker the upper-hand). You cannot use any skills requiring AP, so you're relying on any skills you have for no AP cost and any items you have on your person. If you cannot defeat your attacker within 60 seconds, you will be dead. Even if you defeat your attacker, if you do not have First Aid or a potion or a friend who can heal you, you will be dead.

This is still a combination of multiple effects, which I can't admit to being fully happy with. But the severity of the end-effect, in comparison to its current implementation, is reduced to a state that makes Mortal far more balanced. The effect is essentially several nasty effects in one, but it gives the affected player the chance to deal with it rather than immediately shutting them down. The proposed solution I posted above also stays in line with the RP flavor text that Mortal currently has.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Director Eric » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:25 pm

Duncan wrote:
Director Eric wrote:

The first call in FIRST AID is "First Aid, I stop your count", 10 seconds later it's "First Aird, I reset your count" and 50 seconds after that "You're stable"

So a person could First Aid themselves out of it with First Aid, Basic


Right. Good point. Still. I'm ok with that. The person would have to be focused on performing that First Aid.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Director Eric » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:44 pm

Mordecai wrote:

My recommendation is have Mortal do Bleed Out, Curse, Slow and the partial Silence.
- Bleed Out: If you do not get this effect removed (via receiving healing) within 60 seconds, you will die.
- Curse: You cannot use any skills requiring AP.
- Slow: You cannot run, movement restricted to 1 step every 2 seconds. You also must fight slower, 3 seconds between attacks.
- Partial Silence: You get one chance to shout for help.

In this case, if you are Mortal'd, you can still shout once for help, but after that anything said along must be at a whisper (I actually really like this aspect of Mortal; it means if you were with friends there's a good chance someone will notice your dilema, but if you were alone when you got hit with the effect, there's a strong chance you will be alone for the duration of the encounter). You cannot run, due to only being able to move at a pace of 1 step every 2 seconds (so you can take at most 30 steps before dying). You can still fight, but are greatly hindered, only being able to swing once every 3 seconds (which aids in both the RP factor of being greviously wounded, as well as giving the attacker the upper-hand). You cannot use any skills requiring AP, so you're relying on any skills you have for no AP cost and any items you have on your person. If you cannot defeat your attacker within 60 seconds, you will be dead. Even if you defeat your attacker, if you do not have First Aid or a potion or a friend who can heal you, you will be dead.

This is still a combination of multiple effects, which I can't admit to being fully happy with. But the severity of the end-effect, in comparison to its current implementation, is reduced to a state that makes Mortal far more balanced. The effect is essentially several nasty effects in one, but it gives the affected player the chance to deal with it rather than immediately shutting them down. The proposed solution I posted above also stays in line with the RP flavor text that Mortal currently has.


Though I could debate some of your early points, I won't do that here, because it's not constructive, and I agree with your summation. You're right that Slow adds the RP direction to not be able to act at normal strength. That works for me, as though attacking is possible, it's minimal. I'd be fine with removing the partial silence, since I realized someone screaming in agonizing pain for a minute works with the concept, too, but if people like it, I'm fine with leaving it, too.

Again, in the end, it's the Rules Committee's choice what to do here, but I would support this suggestion as I think it addresses my concerns and those of others who posted in this thread.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Locke Tannen » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:37 pm

With a couple small modifications I think Bach's and Eric's suggestions work for me.

Mortal is already one of the most easily resisted effects in the game. It's also the most easily removed effect in the game, and the way to remove it also gives you BP. Being applied to a poison makes it even more easily resisted. The resistances to cancel out mortal cost half as much as it does to cast it, so it if it gets resisted you just handed an ap advantage to your enemy. If you miss you hand them a 2 AP advantage. Even if I hit them with suprise with a toxin, I'm pretty sure they get to toxin resist so even if i did everything right it could still hand them an ap advantage in a way totally out of my control from just basic mechanics.

If someone staggers back and gets healed, the effect is removed and now they have a 2ap AND a likely bp advantage. In your case undead can be healed 6bp for 1AP. I would need to hit you 12 times and you would have to have no armor before you get healed for me to break even on the AP I successfully spent actually landing an effect on you.

This skill has enough reasons to blow up in your face already without adding a few more. If you allow items to be used, the person could take the effect, instantly cure themselves with a potion and then have a bp and ap advantage. It would also magically hand a get out of mortal free card to anyone with the drake to buy potions. the whole point of the effect is to make you powerless. Giving items would give the person mortaled the upper hand over the person who successfully mortaled them.

In addition to this, I think You should have the choice between one normal volume statement, whispers or one shout made within the first 5-10 seconds that puts you into normal bleedout.

Summoning your strength to shout should use up any strength you would have normally used to do the other stuff. Balance wise, if I sneak up on you and mortal you, you could take the effect, shout while healing it with a potion, and then I have to deal with you with more bp than you started and all of your friends. It would completely eliminate any stealth utility from the skill and remove any NEED to slowly stagger over to anyone because if you were able to shout without consequence people are going to come help you anyway. The ability to should without consequence would completely eliminate this from the stealth playbook entirely, and would make a silly situation where successfully using mortal in a stealth situation would completely blow my cover and thus make the entire thing, in addition to all the risks of giving you ap advantage before I even land it or giving you AP and BP advantage if you are in a situation where someone might be able to heal it, to a situation where even if I land the effect successfully through working hard for a surprise and /or leveling up the toxicity to bypass your defense, it would still put me in a worse situation after landing it than not trying it at all. Add potions to that and it gets even worse.

I think that if you were going to put shout in the effect it would have to put you in regular bleed-out. This way, even if I'm not guaranteed to get away with this, you are getting delivered. This would give you an interesting choice, but also some situational flexibility. Do you want to use what's left of your strength to get help and hope it comes before you die? This would be the choice to make in situations where you go down among mindless undead or enemies who aren't going around delivering everyone. In situations where NPCs are mortalled only the most committed to their cause are going to make this choice over a chance at life. Are you going to take your chances and hope you can fight this person off of you before your time is up? If you are going to make a statement, what if it doesn't convey an urgent message effectively enough? If you couldn't take the risk of them not getting the message, you would have to take the risk of saving your strength and hoping someone sees you instead of using your statement to call attention to you.

as long as someone doesn't have the ability to use items and the person shouting has to make the same kinds of risk assessments I had to make in hitting them with it, I'm happier with it. I really really don't like the idea that as a stealth fighter succeeding in a play could still screw me over, but as long as the person doing it has to make a risk/reward assessment too, it kind of motivates getting fatal as a "way better for stealth" upgrade. Shouting would be annoying, but at least if I could get a messy kill out of it it isn't a complete loss.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Kierdyn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:08 pm

Heal Major Undead Wounds: 7th level Necromancy
Heal 6BP for 2AP

Yes, using Fatal is a much more practical way to stealth gank someone. Also Backstab and Waylay which are actually stealth skills.

Taking away the use of potions isn't a good call in my opinion. Items are for using when you don't have AP, why in this case of not having AP should you not be able to use your items? It also doesn't make IG sense that I can't pull a potion out of my pocket if I have one. Also if people can use items to cause Mortal, it seems balanced to be able to use items to get out of it.

When you say "regular bleed out" do you mean unconscious bleed out? Shouting has always been an option for your one statement at "normal or greater volume". If you're suggesting shouting should put you into unconscious bleed out it's basically Fatal. If someone has Mortaled you, they are trying to kill you, you will be delivered. If your friends can get there in a 3 count, then you probably didn't need to shout in the first place.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Lance LeFleur » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm

Not being able to use items makes sense because your are mortally wounded. You likely have a wound stretching from your chest to your pelvis with your insides spilling out most likely causing nerve damage , significant trauma and greatly reducing your dexterity do to significant bodily damage and blood loss.

Going off of this i dont think someone should be able to first aid themselves because i dont think with this much trauma that they can reasonable patch themselves back up
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Mordecai » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:18 pm

Not being able to use items makes sense because your are mortally wounded.


If looking at this from an IG perspective, with the proposed changes, I can potentially wield a weapon. Considering that, it makes no sense that I couldn't also consume a potion, or throw a toxin at my attacker. Following the same idea that I can potentially wield a weapon and engage in combat, I see no reason why First Aiding yourself would be prohibited. Using items does not require any skill. There are effects that can prevent an individual from using items or First Aid (e.g. Paralysis), but none of those effects are present in the proposed changes.

Unless you're suggesting discarding the proposed change and believe that Mortal should be adjusted to include disallowing of items? In which case, I strongly disagree.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Drimm » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:44 am

I've been following the discussion, and strictly looking at it from the rules - regardless of flavor - it's too powerful for 2 AP. Even if you accept the changes proposed above, you're still getting a comparatively absurd amount of effects in one attack. My suggestion is go with the proposed changes - I think it should be nerfed harder than that, but I know a lot of people like it.


I had Curse before the reboot. When it changed, I dropped it because the main thing that made it so dangerous in the old rules was all the stuff that went along with not being able to use AP skills (can't attack, slowed). Now it is comparably MUCH more tame than Mortal. I can still fight, run, and use items - We've all fought tapped, and yeah it sucks, but it's totally doable. I fought to keep Curse as is, and didn't get it. I understand if you've built into Mortal. I've literally had almost every ability I really liked nerfed (Psionic Blast, Inflict Pain, Battle Mind, Adrenaline Surge), but if it balanced the rules, sometimes we gotta bite the bullet. These changes make it so people like Duncan who have Last Breath actually have a reason to reduce instead of just eating the Fatal.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Mordecai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 am

I've been following the discussion, and strictly looking at it from the rules - regardless of flavor - it's too powerful for 2 AP.


I agree, though I don't think it's regardless of the flavor; I think it's because of the flavor that makes the effect so big, in the current version and even in the proposed changes. I don't think staff considered how much utility they were putting into a single effect when they made it, it sounds like most of their design of the skill was based on the RP-fluff of it. Eric sounded as though he was content with the partial Silence being removed, which I would be happy to see gone; this still leaves Mortal with Bleed Out, Curse and Slow, which is still incredibly powerful. A part of me enjoys the flavor text of the partial Silence. But since Eric has pointed out that the Silence/Slow is all about flavor-text and not about the actual utility of those effects, removing the partial Silence can give both players and NPCs the chance to RP the effect how they want; you want to act like you have a punctured lung and are gasping for air? Are you screaming in agony as you try and slowly limp away? Since the partial Silence was only in the effect for fluff, I think it can go away, since it lets players do their own fluff based on what their character would do. If somebody wants to silently kill somebody? Maybe they should open up the attack with Silence, or better yet, get a skill that actually utilizes the surprise mechanics, like Backstab or Waylay. Mortal is not stealth skill, it's not meant to be able to assassinate an enemy; you might be able to, but it should not be an easy task, considering how many other better effects exist in the game for exactly that purpose.

My suggestion is go with the proposed changes - I think it should be nerfed harder than that, but I know a lot of people like it.


Do you think removal of the partial Silence is enough to make the effect acceptable? The end effect would be the combination of Bleed Out, Curse and Slow, all of which can be removed via 1pt of healing within 60 seconds of being affected. In my opinion, that's good enough; I admittedly prefer the lack of Slow, but also entirely understand a large aspect of this effect is RP fluff, so I'm content with it since it compliments the flavor of the effect so well.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Tim-Director » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:25 am

So as stated above, looks like we have a (partial) consensus of:

Mortal
Target is affected by Curse and Slow, begins to bleed out, and will die after one minute. Target remains conscious, and BP remains the same. Target should role-play the mortal wound, but may continue to use skills. Any healing, including First Aid, will remove this effect.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Director Eric » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:27 am

Tim-Director wrote:So as stated above, looks like we have a (partial) consensus of:

Mortal
Target is affected by Curse and Slow, begins to bleed out, and will die after one minute. Target remains conscious, and BP remains the same. Target should role-play the mortal wound, but may continue to use skills. Any healing, including First Aid, will remove this effect.


That needs some editing, but conceptually works for me.
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Re: Mortal Strike

Postby Tim-Director » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:31 pm

See official ruling.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2084
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