2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

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2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Tim-Director » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:04 pm

The results are in! To export the specific results costs real money, so I put together a synopsis.

RESETS: Terres Rising currently uses a 6 hour reset period in which a PC's Ability Points are refreshed at every 12:00 and 6:00 throughout an event. What do you feel is the ideal reset period?
The current system of 6 hours is ideal. : 34.48%, 10 votes
A Shorter period would be ideal, such as 3 or 4 hours.: 31.03%, 9 votes
A system where AP reset is only at the beginning and middle of game (6pm Saturday), but triple the current amount of AP is given at those times would be ideal.: 0.00%, 0
The entire allotment of AP for an event (the full amount of the current 6 resets) should be given at the beginning of the event with no resets would be ideal. 10.34%, 3 votes
There were 7 votes for OTHER. Four of the other were Sins of a Nation staff or core players, supporting 15 minute resets. Two were people who voted for 3 or 4 hours clarifying that they wanted 3 hours. And the last was someone who is a fan of the Accellerant style of having some skills be per weekend, and some skills per battle.
Directors’ Analysis: While there is a significant amount of people who want change, there is not an overwhelming desire to change to a 3 or 4 hour reset. Changing to a Sins or Accellerant rule style is a radical change that would overhaul the entire rulebook and is not recommended. With the innovations of various ways to reset AP or not expend AP, (i.e. Tai Do, AP Refresh Potions, Human Tier abilities to not expend AP, and the change to “No Effect), we believe that we should keep with the 6 hour reset period.

CALLBACKS: Terres Rising currently uses a simple callback system with a limited number of calls. (Resist, Avoid, Parry, Reflect, Reduce, and No Effect.) However, prior to 2016, we used a more detailed callback system wherein the name of the skill used in defense of an effect had to be declared out loud. Please indicate below how detailed you think callbacks should be.
Very Simple –31.03%, 9
Somewhat Simple –13.79%, 4
Balanced –10.34%, 3
Somewhat Detailed –31.03%, 9
Very Detailed – 13.79%, 4
Directors’ Analysis: On this scale of 1 being Simple, and 5 being Detailed, the results average out at 2.83, pretty much in the middle. Interestingly, the highest votes were for “Very Simple” and “Somewhat Detailed”. We think a change should be made to the Callback system. We could make it where if you use a defense, you simply call the name of the skill you used. (i.e. “Magic Shield”, or “Willpower” or “Psionic Shield, etc.) Alternatively, we could simply add a carrier to the defense. (i.e. “Psi Resist” or “Magic Resist”.) However, we do believe that the term “Avoid” should be essentially deleted, and there be a distinction between “Dodge” and “Phase”, which are the only two ways to get “Avoid”.

GAME START TIME: Terres Rising is currently scheduled to start at 10PM, commencing with an Opening Ceremony once all players have checked in. However, we have been unable to start on time as we wait until all expected players have arrived on site, unpacked, and checked in. What can we do to address this situation?
Nothing. Make no change. 13.79%, 4 votes
Have a hard start time, and if players arrive late, they will miss Opening Ceremonies, have to check in at Monster Camp, and will be prohibited from driving their cars to the cabin to unpack. 34.48%, 10 votes
Have a hard start time, omit Opening Ceremonies entirely. 10.34%, 3
Other 41.38%, 12 votes
Directors’ Analysis: Almost all of the OTHER votes said a single thing. Have a hard start time, and if players arrive late, they will miss Opening Ceremonies, have to check in at Monster Camp, BUT allow them to drive their cars to the cabin to unpack. As such, that is a resounding majority to have a Hard Start time. There were some suggestions that were ridiculous, such as allowing people to drive their cars up, but telling them to turn their lights off (totally unsafe), or to “never run plot in town at game start” which is impracticable. But, one suggestion was to do what Tim did this past Event 4, which is do a “New Player Orientation”, and that way, the actual Opening Ceremonies can be shortened. Going forward, we believe we should enact the following procedure: Check-In begins at the tavern no later than 8:00pm. New Player Orientation occurs in the tavern at 9:30pm. Check-In is cut off at 9:30pm and moved to Monster Camp, where a Staff Member will wait outside the Nurse’s Cabin (Pat & Katie’s usual cabin) for any players to arrive. That Staff Member will check in any late players and tell them to go directly to their cabin and unload their car as unobtrusively as possible. That way, we can adhere to the 10:00pm Hard Start.

SURGERY: We have received feedback that the Surgery skill is overpowered. How should we make Surgery more balanced? (Check all that apply.)
Surgery is balanced as is. No change is necessary. 35.71%, 10
Reduce the probability of success from Surgery. 21.43%, 6
Do not permit Surgery to be used on a patient who has bled out. 3.57%, 1
Do not permit Surgery to be used on a patient who has been Delivered to Death. 25.00%, 7
Do not permit Surgery to be used on a patient who has been struck with the Death effect., 21.43%, 6
Do not permit Surgery to be used on a patient who has been struck by the Assassinate effect., 32.14%, 9
Other, 25.00%, 7
Directors’ Analysis: A change needs to be made. Over the course of three events, we had a total of six Deaths, despite extremely dangerous situations. There are a tremendous variety of responses. One person actually advocated making Surgery easier, so that players never die. Another response, very appropriately pointed out that we need some effect to “finish a fight”. However, looking at the responses of the main two surgeons, Kerri and Don, they have spent an inordinate amount of SP to accomplish their goals. Messing with probabilities, making a further sliding scale, or limiting draws, is an unnecessary “nerf”. However, we should limit Surgical Supervisor (which allows multiple draws for a trauma team) from 5 to 3. We recommend not allowing Surgery to work on Assassinated characters or those who have been Delivered to Death. We leave everything else as is. The logic behind this position is that Assassinate should be a terrifying call. In the last five years, it’s only been used by a single character. Delivery to Death has two major considerations. First, from an aesthetic point of view, it’s a type of mini-rite. Second, from a game rules perspective, it’s very easy to disrupt Delivery. It costs zero AP to swat a weapon away, as opposed to Death effects, which require AP consumable skills, or limited resources to defend against. Also, as a Staff, we are almost always very obvious and blatant when we deliver players.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Dax » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:20 pm

So I just wanted to weigh in my personal thoughts on this. First and foremost I like the suggestion of a hard start time and think improving the callback system is a good idea. Personally I’m a fan of call the skill if we’re moving towards a clearer system but that also requires everyone to be on point with their abilities rather than knowing that’s something is a call they can resist. But that way we would be avoid clunky calls such as Strength resist to calls like maim and the like. As far as resets go I’m fine with the system staying as is because 6 hours just lead to easy times where you refresh and supports the idea of use AP wisely.

And now onto the point where I am admittedly extremely invested and therefore biased, the Surgery suggestions. I fully understand that the end goal is both a system that players will want to utilize while maintaining the risk of death as an in game consequence. I appreciate that there isn’t a suggestion of odds changing because with the 20+ Sp I have sunk into it that would be the most demoralizing change that could be made. And as a surgeon who, admittedly, doesn’t have the skill I actually really like the suggested change to Supervisor. That sort of change really forces the issue on how the surgeons prioritize who and how we’re working on people.Personally with the changes recently made to Assassinate only giving us a 1:12 chance I feel like that conveys the very low chance of success quite well.

Now the suggestion that has me concerned the most would be the change to not be able to operate on someone who has been Delivered. And the main reason for that is I honestly don’t know what kind of an effect that would have on my build making me seem useful. I honestly couldn’t tell you how many surgeries we conducted were on people hit with Death effects, people who Bleed out, and people who were Delivered. And if you have that data on that I’d love to see it so I can get a better idea of why you came to the conclusion you did. Currently the best answer I have on the matter is that maybe this doesn’t make a huge change but it could cut the number of surgeries I can conduct by a third. I’d be much more comfortable if I could get a better idea of those numbers before any drastic changes to who I could operate on were implemented.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Lyndi Thorn » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:35 pm

Of course I need to add my thoughts as well to the changes in surgery.

First, I would like to say as the player with surgery supervisor the change from 5 to 3 is not a bad idea. That one I fully support

Second, I don’t know much about the assassinate call but I have never personally heard one thrown, so I assume it can’t be that wildly had and I would think like was said it’s a dramatic terrifying thing. I think it is fair to allow no surgery on that.

Third, the delivery to death. I am agreeing with Don fully. I would love to see the data to be able to understand the change. If we don’t have the data then instead of the change now allow us to collect it for you. I have actually already purchased an in game journal to track my surgeries for my own personal memory, so adding the question of manner of death is not a problem at all. And I am willing to hand all of my data to staff after each rise to watch for trends as to manner of death, if I was assisted in my surgery, and the outcome of those surgeries. Staff is normally rather blatant and apparent/dramatic when delivering a player and it is appreciated, however sometimes people are not or sometimes it can’t be heard. Death is an essential part of the game, but I think that anyone delivered should have the chance to have a surgery.

I do understand that a change needs to be made and I do greatly appreciate that the amount of SP that we have invested into the skill is being taken into consideration. I know that Don and I are very open to discussion, as well as willing to help in anyway possible to make it a prudent and practical change.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Leadrin Winters » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:54 pm

I would like to make a point regarding the Reset system, and the assessment that there is not an overwhelming desire for the change from 6 hours to 3 or 4 hours. I would assert that every one of those who advocated for our 15 minute resets, were they to be presented with the binary choice of no change or a change to 3 or 4 hour resets, would vote for the latter; however, they believed that that wasn't sufficient and advocated for the more radical change instead. I believe, therefore, that it is not authentic to the intent of those contributors to say that they do not count toward an "overwhelming" desire for a specific solution. If you consider all votes advocating for a shorter reset period of some kind, you get 13 votes, for a 44.83% majority. Given that that is a more overwhelming majority than certain other rulings that staff is recommending we implement, I would argue that this is an inconsistent approach and warrants reconsideration.

Edit: sorry, I forgot the 2 who voted for 3 hours in "other". That brings us to 15 votes for a 51.72% majority.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Vistair » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:40 pm

As one of those that requested for a 15 min reset I am surprised that you guys had an "Other" Section if that section would be disregarded unless it constituted a majority on its own. I think this game would benefit across the board with a more modern reset system (not to mention huge benefit to staff). To me it's clear that there are a large number of players (15 by Andrea's count) that want a change to a shorter reset system of some kind, this is the most important take away from a poll like this, not what specific solution each one of those people would prefer.

Secondly I want to point out to who and in what ways a shorter reset system would benefit, since this conversation has been largely between a specific group of the players and might not have been considered by some portion of the community before being asked to vote on it.

It is a clear benefit for the game itself:
A Per encounter reset system benefits the staffof a game in numerous ways, making your life incredible easier in the following ways:
1-Easier Statting: You quickly learn what the town is capable of/what is needed for a good fight and then you know what you need to bring to bare each time you want to do a fight, without having to worry about how tapped the players might be.
2-Easier Pacing, Consistent systems: No longer do you have to deal with player(s) who do not wish to go on that mod you just built because they are tapped a half an hour after a reset. Nor do you have to just give people a reset that isn't covered by the system because they have become tapped unexpectedly.

Common Misconceptions/Worries-
I like the "fluff" of a rest or a meal:
If you want to keep to DnD trappings in the importance of sleeping and eating, just ascribe additional bonuses to the resets that happen at those times.

It removes resource management:
People believe such a system removes resource management from the game, since you get you might not have to be in multiple fights in the same reset and split your points across them or save just in case.
In practice, it simply moves all resource management to the moment of a fight, since it' still entirely doable to tap yourself to early in a fight even if you come in fully-loaded, but once that fight is over you don't have to worry about not having the abilities that define your character for long periods of time.

Thirdly I would like to point out that it would not require a huge overhaul to convert Terres to a Sins style system, Sins is a heavily modified version of Terres under the hood that uses Terres style of AP pricing. In fact, conversion of Terres to a Sins system would take me about 2 weeks. It would however would require some training of staff of how to stat and run such a game, so if you are unwilling to go all the way to a per encounter reset system I get it.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Arradon Annor » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:11 am

In regards to above considering resets, here's my opinion.

I don't know if I'm ready for every fight to be one of those "blow your load" kinda fights. If my character had that resets advantage, here's how it'd look with the current rules unchanged:

I can sharpen two knives for 1ap. Since I'll be carrying stupid amounts of knives, basically every knife I throw will be 2 damage. Since I have lots of ap, adding precision strike will be cheap, which means basically every encounter I can pelt out a lot of 4 damage knives. Now, if I got a simple imbue, and could cheaply produce blade oils or whatever- ignoring my other crafting designs I could use to stack more damage- I could be dishing out
6 or 7 damage each. With resets every 15 minutes, it'd pretty much guarantee that all my knives would be insane every battle, unbalanced. To try and change the system so I couldn't do that would probably make my super knives not really achievable, which would be sad.

My point: I think 15min works for sins, but at the moment, not for terres. Overhauling resets and skills to match would suck for all the characters designed to work in this system. Everyone would want to overhaul their characters one way or another.

Do I think 6h resets are too long? Yeah. We're always starved for ap and this usually is the deciding factor regarding "can I go on this mod and not be a burden/can I have fun?". Do I like the methods of regaining ap? Barely; tai-bo takes time and only one character can do it. I've seen about 3 ap shakes in game, in ten years. Ap replacement has always seemed like the rarest alchemy/effect possible in terres.

I voted for a 3-4h reset because it'd alleviate things. So many Saturday afternoons there's been fights that drained me for a mod that happened to occur before dinner/6pm reset, or a fight right after dinner that drained me for the big world plot/town rolling by monsters a few hours later. Pcs wouldn't have to worry about using skills early Sunday mornings against karoya so they could save ap for the big fight.

A 4 hour reset would be a perfect way to alleviate these kinds of problems without making any skillset overpowering, or interfering with staff statting/planning. Ultimately it wouldn't beef up pcs all that much, but would allow us to have much more fun with what we got. I know sins 15mins is wicked fun, but I'm not sure if everyone being basically full power every encounter is the answer here. I like a little desperation here and there, without staff having to overstat their own characters to make that desperation more real. Imho, a small step-change to 4h would be a great thing to try for this game.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Kierdyn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:17 am

I just want to point out that the Sins 15 minute resets is not a reset every 15 minutes. It is that you can choose to reset after any 15 minute window that you spend without seeing or hearing any combat. Sometimes you're tapped in a wave battle, but only ten minutes pass between waves and you can't get that reset. There is also a rule that all buffs go away when you reset, so often I put off resetting to not lose any shields or skills that have been bestowed on me. During each event of Sins so far I have waited longer than 6 hours at least once before resetting. I'm not sure that I'm in the norm, but I wanted people to have a better idea of what was being discussed.

That being said, while Jeff notes it's possible to implement this system at Terres, I do think it'd require a huge overhaul that I don't expect staff to take on at this point, or maybe ever. But I do agree with Andrea (and Jeff, and the results) that it seems like the majority of people who responded to this survey would like to see an increase in resets, myself included. I support 3 hour over 4, more for simplicity than because it's a shorter time period. With 3 hours we keep all the same old 6 hour resets and add a new one in between each. With 4 hour increments we'll have slightly weirder reset times to remember.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Lyndi Thorn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:34 am

Arradon, I agree with you. I also voted for the same timeframe you did. I agree I think it would enhance the fun but still leave the element of desperation at times. I know personally I am extremely conservative with my Ap because I get tapped out quickly a lot of times healing, and I like to make sure I have as much as possible to heal everyone from battles. I don’t use my AP for my arrows or claws like I could because I want to conserve it for healing so a closer reset would allow me a bit more room to be more of an asset in a fight especially during the day when I can actually shoot. I do understand not wanting to make things unbalanced and giving everyone full advantage in fights but I think just the smidge closer together with the 4 hour would work well and allow people to have just that much more fun at the events without over burdening staff to hyper stack monsters. I mean whatever is decided is obviously fine because it is picked for a reason, but perhaps the numbers and stats could be run again thinking of the 4 hour and see if it looks like it works :-)

Maybe as Keirdyn just stated with the sins that buffs are gone perhaps that could be implemented on the 3 hour reset and then some people would opt to take the time to get to the 6 hours instead. I think there is a way to decrease the time between resets and implement a way that doesn’t over burden staff for fights and plot, may just need a bit more discussion and tweeking.
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Re: 2017 Winter Rules Survey Results

Postby Tim-Director » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:49 pm

I just wanted to post that silence by staff should not be considered to be ignoring the topic(s).

We are taking what has been posted here with great weight, as we are meeting with both Players Rules Committee members as well as Staff Rules Committee members, as we all strive to make this game that we love, the best and most balanced game it can be.
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